Carolyn Hunter
“The T. A. Barron Podcast.”

T. A. Barron
Today we welcome on this podcast Rue Mapp. Rue is the founder and CEO of Outdoor Afro, an important organization and network that celebrates and inspires Black leadership and connections in nature. Rue is a uniquely powerful voice for including all people in our nation’s great public lands and parks. An avid outdoors woman, she has led a team of Black mountaineers up Kilimanjaro. She has been named a National Geographic Fellow. And, oh yes, she has also gone hiking with Oprah. She also serves with me on the board of The Wilderness Society, a great NGO. And on top of all of that, Rue is a terrific cook and one of my most favorite people in the whole world. Her new book, Nature Swagger from Chronicle Books, is an important and inspiring book. An uplifting chorus of Black voices celebrating nature.

Welcome, Rue Mapp. It’s wonderful to be here with you.

Rue Mapp
Oh, thank you so much, Tom, for having me. For those in the audience who may not know, Tom and I are like friends in real life. Okay. Like, we text each other, [Laughter] we talk on the phone about all kinds of stuff. And you know –

T. A. Barron
We send pictures of the fish that Rue just caught off the Bay. [Laughter]

Rue Mapp
Yeah. And he finds a way to get olives to me, my favorite olives in the world. [Laughter] As if by magic, during board meetings. And, you know, we struck it up for those who don’t know, through The Wilderness Society. And it was another what I call, that magic moment, where we found ourselves just sitting together on a bus headed to a destination that was part of our board experience. One meeting and we’re just going through the woods along the road and just talking. I didn’t know anything about you. You didn’t know anything about me. It’s like, “Okay, I’m sitting next to this person. Let’s just have a great conversation together.” And we were both just kind of like, “wow,” just because of our mutual love for nature and storytelling, we just had this profound and easy connection that we were able to continue.

T. A. Barron
And let me just also add, I totally remember that wonderful meeting, in the context of that board meeting, but I don’t remember anything that we talked about at the board meeting, while I remember every single second of my conversation with you Rue.

Rue Mapp
[Laughter] Wow. Well, we won’t tell the President of The Wilderness Society that.

T. A. Barron
[Laughter] No, but it is true. I totally embrace every second of our conversation. So, Rue, what was your first special experience outdoors in nature?

Rue Mapp
Well, for me, my first special outdoor experience was a moment when I was at my family’s ranch up in Lake County. And at that ranch, there was all kinds of ways to explore nature. We had a creek that ran adjacent to the property. So, I was able to just track the life cycle of that creek and all the living things in it.

T. A. Barron
Copsey Creek, right?

Rue Mapp
Yes, Copsey Creek. And just, you know, always got out of the car wondering what had become of that polliwog or tadpole. You know, had it turned into a frog? Or sometimes catching them kind of midway to becoming frogs from tadpoles. But I would say the youngest memory I had, I was walking, I remember stopping at a formation of leaves on the ground that were wet and glistening in the afternoon sun, and they were gorgeous to me. And I stopped and I asked the question, “What do you know?” [Laughter]

T. A. Barron
I love that!

Rue Mapp
That was like my first dialogue with nature, thinking that there was something it was trying to communicate to me, and I needed to know more. And “What do you know?” in my, you know, limited vocabulary? And I think I’ve been continuing to ask that question of nature, “What do you know?” and have expanded that question, of course, to include what it is about me that I need to know in these experiences of nature. So that was my first and most poignant moment, like, really being deliberate and engaging and seeing nature not as an animal. It’s easy to get connected to a living thing. But here were these leaves just glistening in the sun, all wet and gorgeous, and they caught my attention. And I was not even in kindergarten.

T. A. Barron
Marvelous. What’s beautiful, too is, you have kept that childlike wonder and awareness. It’s a key to living fully, isn’t it?

Rue Mapp
Yeah, absolutely. I think that the curiosity and wonder is something that we don’t allow adults to have in their lives without it having to be attached to making money or, it seems so self-indulgent to be of that mindset as an adult. And that’s why I feel so thankful to be in the business of wonder and joy and transformation. Because really, if you peel back all the layers of Outdoor Afro and our mutual love for the outdoors, it is about not a point in time, but an unfolding and mystery. And this connection that, you know, isn’t packaged up for our convenience to consume, but that is always unfolding and teaching us something new.

T. A. Barron
So wise. So tell us, Rue, what inspired you to create Outdoor Afro? And more than that, what are your highest aspirations and your goals for this great organization?

Rue Mapp
Yeah. I mean, hindsight is 20/20, right? Like, in the moment that I decided to do Outdoor Afro, it was just out of a conversation with a mentor who I trusted, who saw me kind of struggling with what my next professional steps were. And as I grew up on that ranch, I also came to love the Girl Scouts and loved being a part of an affinity group, and loved how that helped me to think of myself as a leader and feel safe to explore and just be a girl, and not be exceptional in my love for nature. And ecology was what people called it in the 70s, ecology. Right? [Laughter] So I love that.

And I also loved computer technology. I was an early adopter of computer technology, from programming BASIC language when I was 10-11 years old, to getting on the Internet in those early 14400 baud connections of the modem, waiting patiently for pages and pictures to load. And then finding these use groups of people who were also in affinity groups around the things that I cared about, such as biking at the time.

And then I found, of course, that that was a way to find these groups to get outside and do things. And so, I ended up being an early adopter of social media. So when my mentor asked me the question, she’s like, “Rue, if time and money were not an issue, what would you be doing?” And I had not long before had a really transformative experience that shifted my relationship with nature through an Outward Bound experience where – now my parents love the outdoors, we were not backpackers and climbers – so I was, like, on the side of a mountain star fished and had this really intense moment of feeling like I was failing and I was not going to make it. And my instructor, he leaned over, and he said, “Rue, just trust your feet.” And I don’t know what happened in that moment. It was like a magic spell came over me, and I scampered to the top. And it was dark, and I didn’t have a headlamp, but being able to summit using the strength of my own body was just a lesson I needed to learn at the time of coming into adulthood that I could trust my feet. I had everything I needed within me to get someplace, even if I didn’t know what was ahead or I couldn’t see below me or what had just happened, I could dig down deep and I could move forward. And I’ve been trusting my feet, really, every sense. And I conjure up that visual a lot.

So when my mentor asked me the question, like, “Well, if time and money is not an issue, what would you be doing?” I opened my mouth and my life just fell out. I said, “I’d probably start a website to reconnect Black people to the outdoors.” I just blurted it out. It didn’t take a focus group. It didn’t take meditation or whatever. It was just, like, as clear as the day. I’m a big fan of Paulo Coelho, and he talks about that magic moment in your life when all the dreams and everything conspires, and it’s just like a key that fits perfectly in the lock of a door. And it was so perfect. And I started Outdoor Afro, like two weeks later in a very early iteration of the Internet through a blog template. And I just couldn’t stop from there. And I just began telling my story.

T. A. Barron
Yeah, you trusted your feet.

Rue Mapp
I trusted my feet, yes. And so the rest is Black history. [Laughter] I’ve just continued to be responsive to the community but also responsive to what the world needs through Outdoor Afro. I knew it was like my truth, my unique song on my heart. And I can’t say that everybody supported me or everybody understood it, but I knew that was my navigational North and nothing was gonna stop me from doing it. And, I mean, who knew that I would have the privileges, but also the chance to be a witness, like a front row seat to so much transformation in people’s lives and in the world. It’s truly an honor and a gift.

T. A. Barron
You’re awakening others into that gift, too. It’s so beautiful to see.

[Music]

We all know this is a very difficult and challenging time for all people. But I would say in particular for Black Americans, and you told me once that you hold all of it. You choose, though, you choose to live in the joy, not in the pain.

Rue Mapp
Yes.

T. A. Barron
Could you talk a bit about that? And could you also connect that up to your love of nature and Outdoor Afro?

Rue Mapp
Yeah. I mean, these have been some really, especially over the last couple of years, during the pandemic, there were two big hits in our society, I feel that shifted things permanently. One, of course, was living a life where one day you’re going to work and doing your normal activities, and then the next day everything is closed and we’re all, like, marooned in our homes. And this feeling of utter helplessness because of everything that was just closing down around you. Places of worship, schools, restaurants, visiting people and spending time with loved ones, especially during the holidays. It was exquisitely difficult for people from the start.

And as I sat at my kitchen table, I saw my lazy pit bull, Lulu, just scratching around on her back in the backyard on the grass. And then I saw this blue jay flitting from limb to limb, as it had done the day before, and will do always. And I realized that nature never closes, and no one could take nature away from us. And I just leaned into the moment of believing that our lives were so much bigger than this moment that we’re in that I knew would pass. But if we took a cue from nature for how we can be and how we can find our peace and our connection.

And for me, it wasn’t about nature, this capital N or capital W, like wilderness experience. It was really about the ordinariness of nature, but also the nature that is within us. And that you don’t have to go to nature to be a part of it, that we are nature. And so I think it was an important inflection point for us to realize who we are as nature and that our connection to it is unbreakable. And we can practice that connection, of course, through outdoor experiences and hopping on a trail, or getting on those roller skates, or tending to those plants in your windowsill. So like, there’s all kinds of ways to practice connection to nature, but it’s not something we have to think about as either there or not there. It’s there all the time. It’s all about raising our consciousness, to see it and appreciate it and enjoy it.

And then absolutely for Black people, there’s been a huge inflection point. I had such a hard time. And to this day, I’ve not watched the George Floyd video. I had enough information. I was raised by a couple who actually took me in when I was very little as an adopted family. And so they were much older than most of my friends’ parents. And that was a huge advantage for me, in retrospect, because they had all this history of living in the South that they brought with them to California, and just had a very different vernacular and worldview that was still very Southern. And I remember coming out of the PBS series Eyes on the Prize, where I learned about Emmett Till for the very first time. And I was horrified because Emmett Till was about my age. And I was like, “How could this possibly happen?” I just didn’t understand it. So I went to my dad and I said, “Hey, have you known anybody who’s ever been lynched?” And he sat back, and he squinted his eyes and he said, “All the time.”

And that was the first awakening of what life was like for Black people in this living generation’s memory. But it also marked how far we’ve come, because that was something, of course, I knew nothing about. And so fast forward into the present moment, regardless of how you felt about the situation, that specific situation, it was a pain and a hurt that erupted in so many people. And people really needed to – they needed to find a way out of that pain and to understand through their desire for justice.

And, you know, back in 2014, I had already realized what my role is in these national moments of pain, of uncertainty, confusion. When I experienced coming out of my office when Ferguson at first began to erupt and I’m in Oakland, and Oakland was similarly preparing for unrest. And I was like, “Wow. Like, what should I do as someone who is a leader of a Black focused organization? Like, what’s my role here?” Because honestly, I didn’t want to go out and protest in the streets. I had dinner to put on the table that night for my three little kids. So, I just felt like there was something else I needed to do, and I wasn’t sure. And the answer came to me, and the answer was, “Nature. You do nature, Rue. That’s your lane.” And I just found this enormous comfort and relief in getting that answer.

And so I turned to my community, and that weekend, there were about 30 of us who did what would become the first of many in our organization, a Healing Hike. And we went in, to that Redwood bowl. I have the privilege of living in Northern California, and we have the sempervirens, or coast Redwoods in abundance in the Oakland Hills. And anywhere there’s the fog that they love so much. And we were easing into that Redwood bowl as a group, just feeling the weight of everything that was burdening us in that moment, just kind of falling off our shoulders. There was laughter where there was quiet before. There was a smoothness across the differences of opinions. And we found our way down into that trail, and there’s a stream, and aptly named a stream trail adjacent to the stream, and I just had this epiphany that we were doing what Black people have always known we could do. We always knew we could lay down our burdens down by the riverside. And we were standing on the shoulders of what our ancestors always knew to do, to turn to nature for their healing, but also for their freedom. Whether it be freedom through Harriet Tubman’s wilderness leadership or the freedom of knowing that there is something bigger than you that you can meditate on and that can get you out of the smallness of the moment you find yourself in, because these are only moments.

And that’s when I understood that nature, you know – I had already, of course, discovered nature as a powerful teacher in my twenties. But to find out that nature was a healer? That was a revelation that stayed with me and became a part of our practice as Outdoor Afro that prepared us for these last two years. So, while everything was shutting down, we were privileged to have lived so long and had been born in digital, that pivoting into digital was not a problem. And when the streets were erupting with all kinds of fears, concerns, anger, people could turn to nature through the Healing Hike. We didn’t have to think up a new thing. We are already out here with open arms for people to find their way forward through a very difficult time. So, I have found for the Black community, that it’s so important to change the representation from our pain and our representation of tortured lives to that of the possibility of joy and transformation that is always there and available for us.

And that’s one of the reasons why I wanted to write my book. I wrote my book during the pandemic because I didn’t want to contribute to monuments of pain and suffering. I wanted to tell a new narrative, the narrative that I grew up with as Black people, and in particular Black men, to be represented outside, anywhere, as strong, beautiful, and free. And so, this work has really helped me to keep my navigational north about how we can reorient ourselves in times of trouble. It doesn’t mean we do nothing. It doesn’t mean that you don’t take the right actions at the voting booth for yourself and your convictions. It does not mean that you are not outspoken. But I think that, especially now, in this era of social, where outrage is just so easy to access, and even what I’ve considered like pre-outrage – like, I’m just knowing I’m going to be mad if I hear anything from this person or about this topic or whatever. It’s just like, really, is this where we are, where we have more access to outrage than to joy?

And so, this has been for me, my own form of protest. To make sure that I’m standing for our joy, for our healing and our transformation. Because I will never give up on that for Black people. And I think that that is for everybody. It is at hand for everybody. And so, I’m thankful to have the specificity of my work, but I recognize that it links arms with so many other people who care about the same things that I care about. And when we’re all talking in the vernacular of nature, where the trees don’t know that you’re Black. Where the flowers gonna bloom no matter how much money is in your account. Where the birds are gonna sing, no matter how much you protested in the street or who you voted for. It gives us something to connect in and find what’s in common for us as well.

T. A. Barron
That is so profound and so much needed right now in our society and our world. Rue, this is hugely important. Take into your heart how valuable this is and meaningful, and transformational, I believe.

Rue Mapp
Yes.

[Music]

Rue Mapp
So I do this thing. We now have 100, almost 120 leaders who we just trained in Granby, Colorado, a couple of weeks ago. And every year I like to have what I like to call office hours. Kind of like how like in college, your professor had these little slots you could sign up for. Because now we started the organization with just me as a blog, and people wanted to move beyond the blog and get outside with people. And so I just organized this kind of rogue group of leaders and just taught them everything that I had been learning through partnerships and my friends at Parks and Recreation offices around the country, about what it took to get people outside and really curate those experiences in a meaningful way. And this Outdoor Afro leadership team was something that I didn’t know would become so important and such a big part of our organization. And when I talk to these leaders, at least a couple of times a year, that “101” conversation, inevitably, it almost feels like, we just feel like we’re having church sometimes in these calls. Where people talk about how Outdoor Afro saved their life. People talk about recovering from postpartum depression because of Outdoor Afro, losing lots of weight to put them in better health because of Outdoor Afro, finding their purpose, finding their joy, discovering that they wanted to go to grad school, or discovering that they needed to quit that job and try something new. I mean, people’s lives have genuinely been transformed in tangible ways. It’s not like a woo-woo thing. It is like, there are real artifacts of change that have happened as a result of people not only getting outside with us, but people who lead with us. And what a privilege it is to have a front row seat to that every day.

T. A. Barron
Marvelous. Marvelous. And this is really a direct reflection, too, of what you’ve poured into not just your work, but the new book. It’s so exciting as well as important. Could you tell us a bit about Nature Swagger?

Rue Mapp
Yes. And first of all, I can’t talk about Nature Swagger without thanking you. So, I wanted to have, like, a visually heavy book. I had already written a proposal for that. And there were a few other publishers reaching out to me around that same time, and they were like, no, you can’t do that because books that have photos are too heavy to ship. And if your first book doesn’t make any money, then you’ll never get another chance to write a second book. And I was kind of bummed out, and I kind of just slogged my way through, like, a memoir. I felt like it wasn’t quite my time to do a memoir. I still have a lot more – at least I like to think I’ve got more life and stories to tell before I get to that point.

T. A. Barron
Yes, indeed.

Rue Mapp
But, okay, so I’ll write a memoir. So I slugged through about eleven chapter samples, and then finally I got a call from Chronicle Books, and they had a proposal offer to me of exactly the book I wanted to write. And I was like, “Yes!” And for those who don’t know Chronicle Books – they are known for making beautiful gift books.

T. A. Barron
Absolutely.

Rue Mapp
And they’re very adept, and embrace visual representation, illustration, and I was like, “Yeah, this is the book I want to write.” And so “Nature Swagger” is a phrase I coined probably about three or four years ago when people would ask me, like, the essence of my work. And I called it Nature Swagger. You could probably Google “Nature Swagger” and not get the book, but get, like, articles where I talk about “Nature Swagger.” And “Nature Swagger” to me was defined as a knowingness in nature and a confidence through that knowingness in nature of who you were in relationship to it and inside of nature. And that you, as a human, with that “Nature Swagger” could move through seasons and moments with an adaptability and a joy. And there’s an infectious quality about that.

And so, I wanted to curate a book that talked about my own story because I think it’s important to share my “why” and how I got here and how my viewpoints have been informed over the years. But I really wanted to showcase other people. So the book is in four sections that highlight various folks who are not, like, all famous people. The youngest contributor is ten years old. The eldest is 99. I think she’ll be 100 by the time our sale date happens. These are just folks talking about their own love… And what was an interesting process for me was to go to people and ask them to contribute, who didn’t even realize they had a story to tell about their connection to nature or their “Nature Swagger.” And so, pulling those stories out of people and allowing people to see their life through the prism of nature was so satisfying. So there’s four sections introduced by me through essays that really set the reader up for each of these chapter experiences. And the first section is “Homecoming.” And then we move into “Places of Purpose”, recognizing how Black people have always chosen places to connect to nature, even when we had Jim Crow exclusion from parks and public lands. And “Hands on the Land” is a wonderful journey of people who are farming and hunting and fishing and doing all kinds of things by really touching this tactile experience of connecting to nature. And then the last section is really a highlight of joy. And that’s the note I always want to leave people in my work, and I was absolutely able to do that in the book.

T. A. Barron
Oh, it’s just triumphant, I have to say, just having been lucky enough to see an advanced copy of the book. It’s an incredible, wonderful celebration of life and love and nature and passion and freedom and individuality and humanity. It is just brilliant. And honestly, it also reminded me, Rue, because of the diversity of voices that you brought together, that encouraging people to tell their story, as you have done in this book, is a gift that is beyond the story, because if someone’s story matters, then they themselves matter, right?

Rue Mapp
Yes.

T. A. Barron
So, there’s just an uplifting and inspiring tone throughout this whole joyful celebration of people and nature and through these wonderful Black voices. I’m so excited about this book.

Rue Mapp
Well, thank you for saying that, because I think sometimes people think that Black people are a monolith. Like, we all have the same viewpoints. But Outdoor Afro has really taught us over the years that regional specificity matters. Like if you’re from the South or you’re from New York or you’re from the Pacific Northwest, you have a different vernacular, you’ve got different access points and way points in nature that shape you. And so this book is a reflection of the diversity within. And gives people – I want people to look at that book and say, “Oh, there’s my Auntie. Oh, there’s my nephew. Oh, he’s cute. I wonder if he’s single.” [Laughter] I mean, I want people to see people who they want to connect with or people they already have in their lives of all ages. I want it to sit on the coffee table of homes around this country and be this representation that’s just not out there and not living in the pain body. Because I think we owe it to ourselves. We do. We owe it to ourselves to have more offerings, more diverse offerings of what we are and also what we can be.

And I just want to thank you for just being my mentor through this process. As someone as accomplished as you are, you understand this world way more than I do. And I’ll never forget the conversation we had, because I think the Nature Swagger title was originally going to be, like, pretty big. And then my name at the bottom was like, itto-litto. And you were like, “Let me tell you something. Your name needs to be bigger.” You’re like, “Everything’s fine. I love the title. I love the pictures. It’s good. But your name has to be bigger.” And I think that was a very important lesson for me to continue to advocate for myself and also a recognition of how I – and I think as women, we do this very frequently. We become so humble to a fault when we really should step into these moments with the bigness and boldness as that we should. And you were like, “No, you’re establishing more than this message delivery. You’re establishing yourself as an author. Embrace it, lift it up, and advocate for your name to be bigger.” Now, I wasn’t able to get it half the size of the page, [Laughter] but it’s much bigger than what it was before. Yea, next time.

T. A. Barron
[Laughter] In the sequel, we’ll go for half the book.

Rue Mapp
Right. [Laughter]

T. A. Barron
Rue, it is just seriously, my friend, it has been an honor and a total privilege to be even, in a very, very small way, because that’s all I’ve been, a small way encouraging you on your path, because your path is so inspiring and so important and so needed right now.

Rue Mapp
Thank you.

T. A. Barron
So, bless you. Now, before we wrap up, I do have one more question for you.

Rue Mapp
Sure.

T. A. Barron
Which is just please share with us, is there a favorite place in nature where you love to go, even when you can’t go there physically? Is there a place you go in your mind and heart where you find solace or peace or strength, tranquility, freedom, those qualities, connection that we all get from nature?

Rue Mapp
Yeah. Well, I mean, you know that I’m a born-again hunter. I’ve been back into hunting pretty hard and heavy for the last few years. The pandemic brought a lot of opportunities for me to do that.

My parents at our ranch – we had cows and pigs. I was involved with the slaughter and processing of those animals. And my dad was a hunter. My mom was very comfortable with a shotgun. And so, we had upland birds. We had such a variety on the table growing up, squirrel, venison, wild pig, as well as domestic pig. And so, I had all these great flavors in my life. And as my parents, as I mentioned earlier, were much older than most people’s parents. And so, by the time I was 30 they’d both passed away, along with a lot of their siblings, and a lot of the tradition of hunting and fishing were not passed down in a tactical way for us. And so, I was kind of left, over the last decade, just trying to find my group of people to connect with around that because I just wanted my food to be sourced in a different way. I also thought about the way that there’s freedom in being able to have access to food in a way that’s not dependent on a market. So I finally found my group.

And what happened for me was a few things. Well, first of all, there’s nothing more beautiful and gorgeous than sitting in a duck blind before the sun rises and the sound of the water.

T. A. Barron
At dawn.

Rue Mapp
Yeah, the sound of the water nearby. And hunting generally involves being up very early in the morning and being in really wild places. It’s not like being on a trail, a durable surface. It’s like being way into nature and actually becoming nature through camouflage or other types of manipulations. You’re actually really immersed in nature. And so through that immersion, sitting in a duck blind, which is meant to camouflage your presence as a human. And to be in that body of water in a marsh and to see the fate of Venus and the Moon give way to the Sun and the layer upon layer of the birds who begin to chirp – and the world, waking up in the morning. To be there and to witness that and be a part of that, it’s filled my soul unlike anything else I’ve done as an adult. And it’s also represented a triumph because hunting is hard and it’s fraught with a lot of challenges and assumptions and barriers to entry. As you’ve heard, it took me ten years to get to where I am now. But it also has profoundly connected me to my family in my family’s lineage.

And I remember when I got my first turkey in the rolling hills of Sonoma and I was walking down the hill with this jake, a young male turkey, slung over my shoulder, and I just felt awash with approval from my father. It’s something that I know that I do stands on the shoulders of many, many Black people who hunted and fished and trapped and who still do in the South in greater number than you’ll find anywhere else in the country. But it’s also just really standing on the shoulders of what my dad represented. And how Outdoor Afro as a whole has really been a love story to my family because through that ranch experience, it was so much about hospitality and welcoming.

And that’s really what my job is. My job is not to know swift water rescue. It’s not to know how to climb a 14er. It’s not to even know how to be an expert hunter. It is really about hospitality and having friends and partners who can link arms with me to help teach those skills that people need to be safe and make good decisions in nature is very important. But my job is about the welcoming and the hospitality and to be able to usher in or be the midwife for transformation wherever possible. And as you define it.

T. A. Barron
So many layers of beauty in all of that. Rue, you’re awesome. Is there anything else before we part ways this morning, is there anything else you would like to say to the folks out there?

Rue Mapp
Yeah, it’s obviously clear to the folks who know you and who know me, that you and I, we look different. We come from different backgrounds. But I see how – and you and I embody this – how nature connects us to everybody. And I like to kind of quip at the end of things and say, oh, you don’t have to have an afro to be a part of Outdoor Afro. Right? And there are a lot of people who look like you, who are like, oh, I don’t know if I’m welcome or if I should be involved. And I respect that reverence. I do. But I just think it’s important for people to recognize that this work is a love story. And it is a love story that’s a part of many other love stories. It’s the patch and the quilt that we’re all sewn together in. And I have found that our specificity of our focus and community has only made us more universally understood. It’s so much more, you know, easy, to know like, we’re talking about a Black American experience versus a BIPOC. I don’t even know what a BIPOC is. I just think BIPOC was like I don’t know. It just came out of nowhere. [Laughter] But I think that specificity matters and that it’s all right to have affinity groups that are taking a deep dive into the specific cultural markers and waypoints of a lived experience. But at the same time, see our commonalities with those experiences. And I believe nature is the perfect platform to do just that.

T. A. Barron
It’s all about love.

Rue Mapp
Indeed.

T. A. Barron
Thank you, Rue. May I just say, as your dad would say, you have a standing invitation to come to my podcast any old time.

Rue Mapp
[Laughter] You remembered. Oh, that’s awesome.

T. A. Barron
[Laughter] Yeah.

Rue Mapp
Well, again, I cannot wait to share this book with the world. And I’m just so thankful. This is actually my first podcast to talk about the book. So, thanks for giving me a little practice. [Laughter] And I’m looking forward to staying in friendship and in conversation with you because it’s been so rich and I have benefited, my organization has benefited so greatly, because of the way you’ve shown up, so generously and in every possible way. So, thank you for everything.

T. A. Barron
You’re so welcome. But, Rue, it is just your good karma coming back around to you. Love you, Rue. Be well. Thank you so much for taking some of your precious time to be with us this morning.

Rue Mapp
Thank you so much for having me.

T. A. Barron
Join us next time as we continue our walk in the enchanted forest of nature for a conversation with another great leader in conservation, Carter Roberts of the World Wildlife Fund.

To everyone out there, let me just say thank you so much for joining us for “Magic and Mountains.” We’ll see you next week. And in the meantime, may you have magical days.

Carolyn Hunter
We hope you enjoyed this week’s episode of “Magic & Mountains: The T. A. Barron Podcast.” Don’t forget to subscribe, leave a five-star review, and share this podcast with your family and friends. For more information and to find all of T. A.’s books, visit TABarron.com. Have a magical week.