Carolyn Hunter
“The T. A. Barron Podcast.”

T. A. Barron
And I have the great delight of conversing with my fellow Rocky Mountain artist Carolyn Hunter.

Carolyn Hunter
And I am so happy to be here with best-selling author and nature lover, T. A. Barron.

T. A. Barron
We are here in my writing room, right now, with lots of books and manuscripts everywhere. Plus, I’d say a fair amount of fan art from all around the world.

Carolyn Hunter
Oh, yeah, I see wizard staffs, creatures like dragons and butterflies, pottery, paintings and so much more in here.

T. A. Barron
Basically, this is my version of Merlin’s Crystal Cave.

Carolyn Hunter
For making magic…

T. A. Barron
That’s right, the magic of stories. And today we are going to talk about a character whose become for me, much more than that. I would say this character has become both a mentor and a friend over the last 30 years. His name is Merlin.

Carolyn Hunter
And for those of you who don’t know, T. A. has written a thirteen-book series, The Merlin Saga, now being developed into a feature film by Disney. You’ve been writing and speaking about Merlin for 30 years. What inspired you to write about Merlin?

T. A. Barron
Well, the answer to that is really easy. It’s that he is such an awesome character. And that’s why he has lived in our world of stories for now, 15 centuries and counting. But for me, the discovery came when I was in my early twenties. I was lucky enough to win a scholarship over to Oxford, England. And I used to go for runs all the time up on the high hills around Oxfordshire. And on one of those runs, I discovered this gorgeous old English Oak tree at the edge of a farm field. And it probably was 300 years old or more, had massive roots, big, beautiful, majestic branches, a fox’s den underneath it, and I would often carry a book in my little backpack and sit under it and just read for an hour before running back. The view, by the way, was intense, too, because I was looking right down on the city of Oxford. So in the late afternoon light, those pink, granite buildings would just shine. It was wonderful. But the very first book I read there was The Once and Future King by T. H. White, which, as you all know, is the first modern retelling of the Arthurian lore. And I completely fell in love with the character Merlin. Of all the characters in the whole Arthurian myth, there was no one who grabbed my mind and heart like Merlin. I loved him. And, of course, the way life works, I had no clue at all that 20 years later, I’d actually get to tell a few stories of my own about Merlin, and weave a thread or two into the tapestry of myth about this fabulous character.

Carolyn Hunter
So 20 years later, what happened? What actually made you write these stories about Merlin?

T. A. Barron
Well, it was a dream. And this dream is so vivid. It’s like it just happened last night, even though it happened more than 25 years ago. And in the dream, I remember so vividly being frightened and feeling like I was drowning. And the dream was about a boy who was being drowned by the sea. And he was reaching I remember one image of his hand reaching up out of the water, and that’s all you could see of him above the water. And then finally, the sea spat him out on this harsh, rocky coastline someplace. And even then, the sea is still grabbing at his torn tunic. Waves are trying to pull him back under the water. And with all of his strength, he crawls a little bit higher and then collapses on the shore. Seagulls are screeching all around. I can still hear those seagulls today. And in that moment, he realizes that he survived some sort of a terrible shipwreck and somehow been washed ashore. But then as he opens his eyes, he realizes something else has happened. Something even worse. And that is he has lost all of his memory, all of it, everything about himself, his whole identity is gone. He has no idea who his parents were, where he grew up. And get this, he doesn’t even know his own name.

Carolyn Hunter
Wow.

T. A. Barron
Yeah. And that’s when I woke up and I was covered with perspiration. I was shaking. I was lonely and scared and, and honestly, confused, for a moment. I could still hear those seagulls screeching in my memory. And then I realized, that boy is Merlin. That boy is going to survive that day, which is amazing. But even more amazing, he is going to become that beloved character, Merlin.

Carolyn Hunter
Wow. It sounds like you just dreamt your first chapter of your first book. Did you get up and say, I’ve got to write this down, right then?

T. A. Barron
I did. It was somewhere around 3:00 in the morning. And unfortunately, though, the writing part is a little harder than the dreaming part.

Carolyn Hunter
Oh, yeah.

T. A. Barron
But I did jot down, the opening lines that actually became the opening lines of book one of The Merlin Saga. Shall I read it to you?

Carolyn Hunter
Definitely.

T. A. Barron
Literally, the first two sentences. They’re spoken by the elder Merlin, reflecting on that day. And here’s how it begins. “If I close my eyes and breathe to the rolling rhythm of the sea, I can still remember that long ago day. Harsh, cold and lifeless it was, as empty of promise as my lungs were empty of air.”

That’s the beginning. Now, I will say there was a whole lot of work to do there, just even starting with that voice. Because while I was pretty much into the voice of the elder Merlin, I had no clue about that, that young boy, and his voice. The scared, lost boy who had just washed ashore, half drowned and barely alive. It took a long time, three full drafts before I could tell the story in his voice. But, I actually knew where I needed to start. And that’s a huge thing. I did do some notes, and that’s when I realized, this is Merlin, for heaven’s sake! This is not just the first wizard. This is not just that fellow whose stories have been sung and danced to and told for centuries. This is Merlin. So I really needed to do this right. So I actually began a year long quest of doing research about every single story I could find about Merlin.

Carolyn Hunter
Right. Because we all know so many stories about the old, wise wizard.

T. A. Barron
Absolutely. And I very quickly learned that there was this beautiful, luminous tapestry of myth that’s been woven over 15 centuries. Every single thread of which is magical, has different colors and ideas woven into it. And all of that having been said, there was a huge hole in the tapestry. A giant gaping hole about his youth.

Carolyn Hunter
Yes.

T. A. Barron
So here I am reading about Merlin described by Geoffrey of Monmouth, or Mallory, or the ancient Celtic folktales or ballads that are inscribed by monks in The Welsh Mabinogion. Plus threads that were woven by bards as diverse as Shakespeare and Tolstoy and Mary Stewart and T. H. White. But there was this hole. And as I realized, that’s a great opportunity for a storyteller weaver to add a few threads.

Carolyn Hunter
Yes.

T. A. Barron
But at the same time, Carolyn, it was a huge challenge. And I felt the weight of that challenge. Because this was the most important, compelling, and maybe exciting time of Merlin’s life. It’s when he became a wizard, after all. It’s when he discovered his powers, his identity, his magic. And on top of that, it’s how he mastered those powers. How he learned about love and compassion, how he handled grief, how he became courageous, how he understood humility. How he came to know the darker sides of his own self so that he had that humility deepen and ultimately could become the great mentor to a young King named Arthur. All of that, plus falling in love and having great adventures and surprises that could not be possibly predicted. All of that would be in his youth.

Carolyn Hunter
I mean, just hearing it from you, it sounds like such a huge challenge and responsibility to weave the story before all these beloved stories that everybody knows.

T. A. Barron
Yes. And it was also just great fun. Also, it’s very humbling. I feel so lucky that Merlin chose me to tell this story. But the truth is, you’re right. It had to be done well or not done at all.

Carolyn Hunter
Right.

T. A. Barron
And it was clear right from the beginning that this isn’t just telling a few great adventure stories about a character who has a well-known name. The real challenge was to illuminate the character qualities of Merlin. I mean, I had to really come to understand, what were his deepest fears, what were his greatest struggles that he had? What were his highest hopes, even his secret dreams, the ones that he wouldn’t even tell to himself, let alone to anyone else?

Carolyn Hunter
Wow.

T. A. Barron
All of that, you know, what were his passions? What were his greatest heartaches? And how did he discover that nature was the true source of all magic? All of that lay in front of me. And yet, I have to add, [Laughter] all of that was the easy part, because right now, all I have is the concept and a really wickedly, unforgettable dream. Okay.

Carolyn Hunter
Yes.

T. A. Barron
That’s great. But it is only the beginning. So what I needed to do was really dive into all of that ancient literature and come to know those folk tales and ballads and stories, and at the same time, always remember that this had to be told in the authentic voice of that boy and really make that transition. And it finally happened. But it was a journey. And I, just again, I feel deeply, deeply grateful that Merlin said, “Hey you, Colorado kid, this is your chance to tell this part of my story. It’s never been told before. These are the years that were lost from the world of myth and story and time.”

Carolyn Hunter
Wow. Gosh, why do you think that Merlin has such a hold on all of us across centuries and centuries? Why does he still have this power over us?

T. A. Barron
That is a great question. And I’ve asked myself the same question many times in the years since that dream. The answer, I think, has three parts. One is Merlin stands for the idea that all of us, every person of every background description of all kinds, has something magical down inside themselves. And that is true for the elder Wizard Merlin. And it’s also true for that boy. Maybe you could say especially true for that boy who washes ashore because he has nothing. It seems on that moment that he washes ashore, but in fact, he does. He has that little spark of magic that will grow as we know into this great, luminous bonfire that will light the world of story across centuries.

Second of all, Merlin stands for the idea that there is a universality among all people. Whatever descriptions, backgrounds, languages, religions, cultures, all people share a common universality. And Merlin represents that in all of the stories of Arthur, there was only one character who crossed all the boundaries between people of different ranks or societies or languages or religions. And that was Merlin.

Carolyn Hunter
Yeah.

T. A. Barron
So many stories have him talking to the beggar on the street, meeting with King Arthur’s court of nobleman, or delivering a message to the Archbishop of Canterbury, and then going out on a hillside and conversing with an ancient wolf who comes to sit beside him. Those ways that Merlin bridges all the boundaries are really important in lore, and I would say they are especially important here now in the 21st century.

Carolyn Hunter
Exactly.

T. A. Barron
And the third part of the answer is the sacredness of nature. Merlin comes to realize early on that nature is the source of all of his magic, and that if he is humble and centered, he can call upon that magic and turn it to good use. But it’s never his magic. It’s not just about waving a wand or saying the right incantation. He has to draw magic from nature in a humble and compassionate way. And then he, as a wizard, gets to use that. So there’s a deep humility in that, and there’s also a great inspiration in that. And I will say that, for me, who also has gained enormous inspiration from nature, it was wonderful to write about this character who would discover that inspiration and feel the sacredness of nature all throughout his life.

Carolyn Hunter
That’s such a beautiful way to describe that.

T. A. Barron
And this is another of Merlin’s core qualities that we need more than ever today.

Carolyn Hunter
I agree.

T. A. Barron
Our environment is in trouble. Just look around us. We can see so many destructive human impacts on our forests, our rivers, our oceans, the air we breathe, plus climate change. Also, the loss of so many beautiful species, our fellow creatures. So, of course, we need our science, we need good policy. But I think we need something else that Merlin can give us. We need to regain our commitment to the sacredness of nature, how it nurtures and heals and renews and inspires us. Merlin can be a terrific guide to us all in these ways. We need his deep connection to nature, his respect for nature more than ever.

Carolyn Hunter
We certainly do.

T. A. Barron
And I would just add to that, that of all the ways that Merlin has stayed in my life and made a difference to me, there are none more important than that image of the boy washing ashore. I’ve even come to call it the metaphor of Merlin, because all of us have difficult times. All of us feel washed ashore at some point in life. I sure know I have.

Carolyn Hunter
Me too.

T. A. Barron
And yet all of us, just like that boy, have something special down inside, even in those moments, something special that could help us get up, keep walking, and ultimately become a positive force in the world. That metaphor of Merlin inspires me all the time, and I really hope that maybe it also helps other people.

Carolyn Hunter
Yeah, I can feel how passionate you are about this idea, and it seems to be a theme in a lot of your writing, this idea of the magic within somebody or some creature. And in your newest book, Giant, you see that in Shim. Can you tell us about this character?

T. A. Barron
For lots of people, Shim is the most favorite character in the whole Merlin Saga, possibly with the exception of Merlin himself and maybe Rhia. He is this tiny little guy who is barely knee high on Merlin, who, despite all the evidence, is convinced completely that he’s really a giant. Now, [Laughter] I have, as a dad, often thought how these little people who are in our midst as our children really, truly are huge in personalities. They are big people who just happen to be in a small package for a while. [Laughter] And so I understand why people love Shim, But it’s also special that he discovers, ultimately, that being a giant is about a lot more than just the size of your bones. And this whole affinity with Shim was really deepened, actually, over the last several years of working on the Merlin movie with the Disney people because they really wanted to know, what is the origin of this character? How does somebody so small become completely convinced that they are actually a giant? Why? How did that happen?

Carolyn Hunter
Cool.

T. A. Barron
And so in thinking about that, I realized that’s a wonderful story, and I’d love to tell it. So I made it a standalone book as the prequel to The Merlin Saga.

Carolyn Hunter
And it’s also a gateway to all the other Merlin books.

T. A. Barron
I still hear Shim’s voice loud and clear. Let me, in fact, share with you the opening page to Giant.

Carolyn Hunter
Perfect.

T. A. Barron
“Shim is my name and a grandly name it is deserving. All the praise it never got. Certainly, definitely, absolutely. But my original name was muchly bigger, just as my original self was muchly bigger, a long way from the smallsy, utterly shrunkled self who first met Merlin. How did that really happen? Well, that is the story I’d like to tell you now. It is the tale of a verily small person with some verily big dreams.”

Carolyn Hunter
[Laughter] Sweet Shim. He is so beloved.

T. A. Barron
Certainly, definitely, absolutely.

Carolyn Hunter
[Laughter] Wow, what a delight it’s been to be here in your writing room talking about so many wonderful things, especially your journey with Merlin.

T. A. Barron
And it has been a journey which we’re going to continue, by the way, next week.

Our next episode will be a deeper dive into the history and lore of Merlin. We actually are going to welcome an awesome guest who is a worldwide authority on the legends of Merlin and the whole Arthurian cycle. And we’re going to talk about Merlin not just as a mythic character but as a historical figure. After that, we’ll also have episodes in this season that are about the creative process, about the rich magic of nature, and we’ll also have a marvelous guest join us on that one, and about young heroes, real life young heroes and the positive difference they are making in the world.

Carolyn Hunter
And I hope that we’ll get to hear a little bit about what it’s like to have one of your books being developed into a feature film by Disney.

T. A. Barron
Let’s do that.

To everyone out there. Let me just say thank you so much for joining us for “Magic & Mountains.” We’ll see you next week. And in the meantime, may you have magical days.

Carolyn Hunter
We hope you enjoyed this week’s episode of “Magic & Mountains: The T. A. Barron Podcast.” Don’t forget to subscribe, leave a five-star review, and share this podcast with your family and friends. For more information and to find all of T. A.’s books, visit TABarron.com. Have a magical week.