Carolyn Hunter
The T. A. Barron Podcast.

T. A. Barron
Rivers provide clean water and natural habitat. They support all kinds of life, including us human beings. So saving our rivers is a necessity. Yet today, our rivers are at risk as never before. American Rivers is a wonderful conservation group based in Washington, DC and it works nonstop to protect the rivers of this continent. Over 1 million miles of free-flowing rivers, from remote mountain streams to urban waterways. Today on Magic & Mountains, we are extremely lucky to have with us the leader of American Rivers, Tom Kiernan. Tom has been a terrific leader of several great environmental NGOs, including the National Parks Conservation Association and now American Rivers. Plus, I will also add, Tom, you are a fabulous hiking companion. Even when I get you almost lost in the middle of the Maroon Bells Wilderness, and you have since forgiven me for that. But it’s great to have you here with us, Tom.

Tom Kiernan
Well, Tom, it is wonderful to join you here this morning, given our lifelong friendships and almost, in a way, we’ve grown up together. It’s lovely to be with you to talk about rivers, this planet, our journey as individuals on this planet, the work that I and our team at American Rivers do for conservation. So love the opportunity to spend the time with you and your wonderful family. So thank you for asking.

T. A. Barron
It’s always great, Tom, even when we almost get each other lost out in the wilderness. First up, where did your love of nature begin? Because it’s from that that your life of dedicated conservation work has sprung. Where did those seeds get planted?

Tom Kiernan
When I was growing up in Arlington, Virginia, outside Washington, DC there was a creek, a small little creek called Donaldson Run across the street. And when I was a young boy, five, six, seven, I lived in that creek. I mean, that’s where I found peace and enjoyment and exploration. I should also share that I lost my father when I was seven years old. He was over in Vietnam and was killed in action. So it was my mother and my older brother and I, so a small family. So I had a lot of time, and my mother was good enough to shoo us outside. “Get outside. You’re two young boys, be outside.”

T. A. Barron
The best.

Tom Kiernan
Yeah. She’s 94 years old and just doing extraordinarily well and lives about a mile from us now. So I lost my father when I was seven, and I had an awkward youth, just unsure, insecure, not really knowing this guy thing, or I didn’t have my father to learn from. I had my older brother. But it was the creek, it was the woods, where I found comfort. I just had a connection to the moving water. The rivers were an avenue for me and my little creek dumped into the Potomac. And then on the Potomac, I could kayak. And then, just in my youth, it was like, this is where I’m feeling so much love. So it was clear early on, in high school, I took a class in environmental chemistry and read Rachel Carson’s Silent Spring. And it was…

T. A. Barron
Fabulous.

Tom Kiernan
…As if a light had gone off. It was like, oh, these are the places I’m spending all my time. And, oh, there are issues, there are challenges, acid rain, pesticide, ozone depletion. And it was like, this is what I want to dedicate my life to. So it was very much early on that I found a connection with the natural world.

T. A. Barron
Nature really has that capacity to hold us, doesn’t it? In times of stress or loss or deep personal troubles.

Tom Kiernan
And soothe you, give you some support, give you a sense of you do have a place in this world, and there are some connections.

T. A. Barron
It’s reassuring in the deepest possible way. Plus, I’m sure you feel this too, Tom. Nature is all about the magic of transformation. A seed becomes an apple tree that grows these wonderful, tasty, sweet, tart fruits that are filled with seeds of their own, which can feed us and feed other animals and make great apple pie and all the rest. Or the seasons. Right now, we’re at the point of a change of seasons and everything’s happening. We just yesterday found the first iris blooming in our garden and all of those wonders.

There’s so much about the power of transformation around us all the time in nature, and it’s impossible to be out in nature and not remember that we too have that power of renewal and transformation. We can shape who we are and how we are in the world. It’s incredible. And it is right there in Mother Nature all the time.

Tom Kiernan
So true. And even more so in the last couple of years with COVID. As people were stressed, what did they do? Well, they took walks and sat by rivers and listened to streams and saw wildlife. So that’s just one more example of the power of nature. I often am reminded, I mentioned to you yesterday as we were walking along the creek, that phrase from John Muir, “Let the peace of nature pass through you.” Because for me, I can just physiologically feel my body relaxing and reconnecting and regrounding when I’m out connecting, listening, walking with the natural world.

T. A. Barron
What is it, do you think, about rivers and moving water that’s particularly powerful in that comforting, reassuring way? What is it about water?

Tom Kiernan
I think it is almost in our genetic DNA. I mean, we are 60%, on average, 60% water. We need water. You first need air to breathe, and next you need water to drink. And I think there’s a genetic evolutionary connection to water, to moving water. Moving water tends to be cleaner water because you’ve got all the microbes and the plants and the animals cleaning the water. So I think we are predisposed, there’s a connection to moving water. And it’s why, one of the reasons why, for so many centuries we build small towns or homes or homesteads or cities on rivers.

T. A. Barron
Right.

Tom Kiernan
I think there’s just this deep emotional connection we all have with moving water, and some of us are fortunate enough to live in places where that’s easily accessible, and we need to make sure more people have easy access to clean moving water because it’s so important physically and emotionally.

T. A. Barron
So true. So, Tom, tell us about the trail you’ve walked to become a lifetime conservationist, or actually, to use a better metaphor, the river you have run to become that devoted protector of wild places and open space that you’ve become.

Tom Kiernan
I love the concept of a journey because there have been twists and turns. I’ll share a little story. When I went to college, I petitioned the college to create a new major because I was interested in environmental science, and this was in the early days, computers. And so I petitioned the college and said, I want to create a major called environmental computer modeling. I wanted to try to model environmental systems on this new-fangled thing called the computer. And I will forever be grateful. The college, they said, yeah, okay. I proposed these courses and those courses, and they’d come together. I’d be modeling nutrient flows and soils. And the college said, yes. And the reason I share that little story is the importance I feel of, especially in conservation, but I think in all of our lives, following your passion, figuring out what really excites you. And yes, we also need to earn some money, or you want to raise a family, and a bunch of things. But follow your passion, figure out what turns you on, what excites you. And for me, that was an early lesson, thanks to the college.

And then coming out, I wasn’t ready to put on a coat and tie or anything. I was a river guide for many years, and where my office, so to speak, was a wild and scenic river, the Chattooga River in the southeast.

T. A. Barron
I like that office.

Tom Kiernan
Yeah, no! And I would talk to people about, hey, this is my office. What do you think of my office? The view from my window as we’re doing this trip down the Chattooga? So, in any case, I was a river guide in the southeast and out west.

T. A. Barron
You went to the Grand Canyon, too.

Tom Kiernan
I first did a personal trip, kayaking, and then led a group of kayakers down the Grand Canyon. I had the great fortune, a bit edgy, to do a trip over in Kenya, a first descent of the Tana River. And that was a great phase in my life, just more deeply connecting with the rivers.

T. A. Barron
And avoiding the hippos.

Tom Kiernan
We had some hippo challenges on the Tana, and crocodiles were not happy to see us, and I’m not going to say I was happy to see them either. So that was an extraordinary trip. But I was also then going, okay, I want to continue, but what can I do to help protect these rivers? What can I do to protect the natural world, or at least do my part? And I felt at that point I wanted to understand more about the business world, all right, because business economy is such an impact and such a force on the globe that I joined this company, Arthur Anderson and Company, and their consulting firm. Did that for a couple of years and went to business school, all with the belief that I wanted to understand the business world and then be a leader advocate in environmental conservation.

So did that and then went to EPA, helping to manage the Clean Air Act. And for the last 30 or so years, as an advocate for our natural world, and there’s for me, it’s been just… there have been challenges, but it’s been so deeply aligned with my personal values that I’m enjoying this journey.

T. A. Barron
Evidently! It’s just too bad you don’t have any enthusiasm.

[Music Plays]

T. A. Barron
Tom, I have to ask you, what’s your favorite river?

Tom Kiernan
Oh, boy. It’s hard to say. They’re all so…

T. A. Barron
It’s okay if you can’t pick one.

Tom Kiernan
Exactly, because just being on a river boating, whether it’s the Yampa, the Grand Canyon, or the Killik River up in Alaska. I spend some time fishing on rivers, and that’s a different type of experience that is wonderful. And trying to do that in a way that is appropriate, obviously, it’s a catch and release situation. So in any case, it’s hard to pick a river. They are all so important. At American Rivers, we have a saying, “Life depends on rivers.” Our lives, the lives of all animals, of wildlife, depend on rivers. And frankly, yes, my joy connects with rivers as well. So that’s a long answer. Hard for me to pick one of my favorite rivers.

T. A. Barron
That’s an acceptable answer.

Tom Kiernan
Okay.

T. A. Barron
If you asked me which of my children I love the best, I would give a same waffly answer. I can’t pick one, but I love them all for different reasons. So, Tom, let’s change to a higher altitude view now. What are the greatest dangers facing our rivers worldwide, but in particular on this continent? And then tell us, what is American Rivers, as an organization, attempting to do about those problems?

Tom Kiernan
If I can, let me take a step back, because I think it’s an important step back. We need to recall that in the 1960s and 70s a number of our rivers caught on fire.

T. A. Barron
I know. The Cuyahoga River. I remember that picture, in flames, this river. It was devastating to see that.

Tom Kiernan
Yeah, and it was shocking! And people are going, what? Our rivers are catching on fire. And that was one among other catalytic events that led to an update of what’s now called the Clean Water Act. And so the reason I just want to mention that is the Clean Water Act focused on reducing what’s called point source pollution, pollution from, say, a factory or a power plant dumping all kinds of toxics or pollutants or chemicals into a river. So, point being, in some respects, we have, over the last several decades, improved water quality in our rivers. And I feel it’s imperative to start with this point, because we can do good things.

T. A. Barron
Yes, we can do this.

Tom Kiernan
We can make progress. We saw a problem and we addressed it, and there was significant improvement. So, river health was horrid back then. It has improved. However, we have a newer set of challenges. As the human species has grown, our economies have grown, and we’re now seeing while river health improved in the 1970s, 80s, and 90s, we are now seeing dramatic decline in river health because of three primary factors.

First, climate change. Climate change isn’t something out there in the future. It is here, it is now, and you’re reading about it every day on the front page of the papers. We’re seeing more droughts, whether in the Southwest or floods in California or the Mississippi. In the last three years, we’ve seen horrendous floods on the Mississippi like never before, and we saw some drought that led to barge traffic not being able to move on the Mississippi. So first thing, climate change is here and now and harming our rivers.

Secondly, we’re seeing biodiversity loss, loss of nature in our rivers.

T. A. Barron
Significant.

Tom Kiernan
Significant. And it’s actually twice the rate of freshwater species loss than terrestrial or ocean. And that’s from, yes, somewhat because of climate change, but also habitat destruction adjacent to rivers, inappropriate development right on riverbanks. So we’re losing nature.

T. A. Barron
Filling in wetlands.

Tom Kiernan
Oh, filling in wetlands, filling in or not having access to floodplains right next to a river. Floodplains are extraordinarily important. The riparian corridor, the corridor right next to a river, is extraordinarily important for wildlife habitat and nurseries for young, whether it’s fish or mammals, or watering sources for critters coming to drink. So…

T. A. Barron
This is why we want those beavers in there!

Tom Kiernan
Yeah, exactly. So we have a biodiversity loss problem, and then in a different dimension, we’re seeing at a societal level, significant environmental injustices, where, and you can just look at the data, where we see the unhealthiest rivers tend to be in places where they’re communities of color, tribal nations. The reality is our federal and state EPAs have not been enforcing the laws that we have in areas where it tends more to be communities of color or underserved or poor communities. And that is impacting access. We do not have equal access to clean water and clean river. The reality is communities of color and tribal nations have less access to some of the treasures of our rivers. So that’s kind of a different dimension, but really important to talk about.

Back, again, back in the 60s and 70s we had industry dumping pollution in. We have significantly addressed that problem. Now we have these other newer challenges that are leading to significant harm. And it brings me back – life depends on rivers. And we’ve got new challenges, and we as a country need to step up with some new solutions.

T. A. Barron
So what is American Rivers doing to help address all of these problems? Climate change, biodiversity loss, environmental justice?

Tom Kiernan
First, I will say American Rivers – we’ve been around for 50 years, and we’re actually celebrating that this year, which has given a pause to, one, reflect on past successes, but also a realization. We’ve got to scale up our work, and we’ve got to protect places where rivers are currently healthy, where we have relatively clean water. So we are working to use the Wild and Scenic Act by Congress to have these rivers designated as wild and scenic or recreational values.

So we’re also working to restore degraded rivers. And we have close to 400,000 dams in this country, some of which are producing hydropower, some of which are important for irrigation, some of which are important for recreation. So I don’t want to diminish some of the benefits of dams. However, of the 400,000, roughly, dams in this country, there are a lot of them that are abandoned, that are outdated, and there are all these huge concrete barriers that mostly prevent movement of fish up and down the river. One of the things we’re doing is removing dams throughout the country. And as a country, we’re getting about 100 dams out a year. And that’s a nice start. We need to be getting about 1000 dams out a year if we’re going to return our rivers to being healthy rivers.

With more floods and droughts, one of the best strategies is not to have a dam that is preventing a river from doing its natural thing. Of using… of having the water, hey, if there’s a flood, have it flood out onto the floodplains. Or if there’s a drought, allow the floodplains to retain some of that water and hold it for later in the season. The best thing to do is allow a river to be a river. Allow the natural dynamics of the hydrology of a river. That’s the best strategy in climate change, to adapt to climate change with the floods and droughts, is remove the dam and allow the river to flow. Use the floodplains and use groundwater, the aquifers, to store the water. Don’t have a reservoir that’s above ground storing water because 30% of that is lost to evaporation. Use the groundwater. But removing dams is a key strategy for restoring the healthy dynamics of our rivers.

[Music Plays]

T. A. Barron
Casting your eye forward into the future, Tom, what are your goals for this organization, but also for our continent and our rivers? Say, pick a time five years from now. What would you like to have accomplished?

Tom Kiernan
Let me take it out a little further first, and then I’ll bring it back to the five years. We have a goal that by 2050, we’ve got to have removed 30,000 of the most damaging dams in this country. We need to protect a third of all of our river miles, about a million miles, we’ve got to have protected. So we’ve set some very ambitious goals. And in all candor, we’ve got to have some big ambitious goals because the climate crisis is devastating, will devastate our natural systems upon which all life depends.

So we are saying, as American Rivers, we’ve got to have some, as Jim Collins, the author, would say, some big, hairy, audacious goals that we have to meet. So in my work with our team at American Rivers, it’s like, all right, what are we going to do to get our rivers to be healthy? So we have these ambitious goals and we’ve brought them back to some three and five year goals for what we’ve got to get done.

An example of that, a new topic, but the floodplains adjacent to rivers are as important, if not more important, than wetlands throughout our landscape. And people, I think, over the years, have learned about wetlands being really important. But yet, as a country, we don’t have a strategy to reconnect our floodplains to our rivers. So American Rivers has targeted 21,000 acres on a whole series of rivers to demonstrate the power and importance of reconstituting, reconnecting our floodplains. Removing barriers, often levees, to the adjacent floodplains. So we’ve set that goal 21,000 by 2026. So three years from now, we got to get a bunch of new acreage reconnected to our rivers. So we do have some near term goals.

As I said, we’ve got to ramp up quickly so that roughly during this decade, we’re taking out 1000 dams a year. We’re taking 100 down now. How are we going to scale that up? We’ve got to step up our game. We’ve got to recruit new partners. We’ve got to get additional funding. So this is exciting, this is challenging. And it is a necessity that we get this done. Because life depends on rivers. We’ve got to have healthy rivers. So this is not optional. This is not something that’s a nice to have. This is something that our planet needs.

T. A. Barron
You know what’s great, Tom, is even with the depth of these challenges, it strikes me there’s an essential hopefulness inside the work that you’re doing. And I’ve heard you often talk about that idea that there’s hope always, even in the midst of the most serious problems. Could you talk about that?

Tom Kiernan
I would love to talk about it because I’m passionate on many dimensions of it. First, when we remove a dam, normally within a year or so, you’re seeing, whether it’s the salmon or other anadromous fish – anadromous fish are ones that normally live in the saltwater and then migrate back up. We see anadromous fish. Within a year, we’ll see salmon coming back up that river. And there is nothing like feeling the power of, whether it’s a piece of dynamite blowing up that dam, but suddenly the river is set free. And the river is flowing and the water is moving. And then in a short while thereafter, fish are coming back up.

And then, let’s remember, 167 species depend on that salmon for – whether it’s nutrition, the bears eating the salmon, or then the whole trophic cascade. But the point is, you suddenly see life coming back on that river, the salmon migrating up, the whole upper watershed starting to get more vibrant. And the biologists – this is all documented of the impact on the bear population, the impact on trees, because guess what? The bears poop in the woods after eating the salmon. There’s more nutrient and more organic matter that you see in the tree rings. So the point is, when you remove that dam, the whole watershed starts coming back to life.

T. A. Barron
Including benefiting humans.

Tom Kiernan
Including benefiting humans. We all benefit. And there are more people there recreating, fishing, enjoying the salmon, seeing the salmon.

T. A. Barron
And having clean drinking water.

Tom Kiernan
Exactly. Because the water that’s moving, instead of being stuck in a reservoir. And reservoirs, the water gets warm. And warm water is not what a lot of these cold-water fish species need, and it’s exacerbated by climate change. But there is a hopefulness in restoring our rivers. And you feel good as a conservationist. You can get burnt out. People that care deeply about the environment can get depressed or concerned. But the reality is, if you get out there and help restore a river, it is hopeful.

And let me go on a quick tangent if I can, because all of this work and the importance of the environment is so personal. We’re working at American Rivers to make sure we’ve got the right core values. Because I want to be sure as individual humans at American Rivers and at other organizations and throughout society, that we’re healthy, that we’re thriving, that as a human species we’re doing as well as we possibly can and having a hopeful attitude. Having a positive attitude, which you can get by doing this river restoration work, rejuvenates us. And people get excited and motivated and cheerful and hopeful and get reborn to a degree.

T. A. Barron
And empowered.

Tom Kiernan
Yes. And we were talking last night, people get buoyant, their spirits lift at times in our society, you can get down, you can get depressed, you can get the weight of some of the challenges. And some of the politics these days can be challenging. And people aren’t working well together. So we have a lot of stresses in our lives. And reconnecting with the natural world and seeing that we can do positive things to help the natural world. We’re all connected. And it’s wonderful doing this work where it feeds our soul. So, yes, I’m passionate about this point that conservation work is or can be very positive and hopeful and energizing.

T. A. Barron
It is. One of the great things about you, Tom, is that you live your values. You always have. As long as I have known you, you have been clear and aware of the values you care about. And then you have found work that allows you to project those values into the world and to connect with others around those values and help lift the… to use another water metaphor… to lift the boats that we’re all in. And I would like to ask you, as a leader of an organization, how do you bring others to the place where they feel empowered and they understand the importance of this work. And they also are willing to go deep in themselves and pull out qualities like perseverance and courage and compassion and all of the qualities that it takes to really succeed. How do you do that as a leader?

Tom Kiernan
I will say first, while I try to live my values, I also want to acknowledge it’s not always a straight line, it’s not always perfect. We, each of us mess up at times.

T. A. Barron
Of course.

Tom Kiernan
So let’s put things in context that like everybody, I make some mistakes and some poor decisions and that’s… welcome to life.

T. A. Barron
That’s how I got us almost permanently lost in the Maroon Bells. Yeah, I get it. But do we learn from our mistakes? That’s the question.

Tom Kiernan
Exactly. And so I do try living my values because it’s what gives me meaning. I care about the natural world, I care about my wife, I care about my family, I care about community, I care deeply about the organizations that I’m working with or leading. So first, I think it’s important for a leader, I’m all in. And I hope that staff feel, wow, Tom’s all in. And that, I think, is an important leadership quality.

T. A. Barron
So step one is to live those values yourself and always be learning and along the way, being humble about that, but doing your very best to exemplify those values.

Tom Kiernan
Yes, and trying – it’s a term that somewhat is in vogue, but I genuinely agree with it – trying to be authentic. I believe an effective leader is one who is trying to be genuine and say, oop, yeah, I screwed up yesterday, what am I learning from it? So one, I think it’s being all in and being authentic. I do think, and you alluded to this earlier, having a humility. I know some things I don’t know a whole lot. I turn to those on staff and those partners that have had different experiences. Listening and learning is, what a joy and privilege to listen to other people that have had different experiences going, wow, oh, I didn’t know that.

T. A. Barron
It’s no accident that in the 13 books of The Merlin Saga, Merlin’s very first lesson is how little he knows and how much he has to learn. First lesson, overcoming that hubris and arrogance of youth and having a sense of, oh, I have a ton to learn, and opening to that.

Tom Kiernan
Yeah. And borrowing from something somebody else said, leaders in an organization bring the weather. And I thought that was interesting because a leader does set a tone and I liked that because there is some power, and I use that with a small p, power, in the important role modeling role that leaders play in organizations.

T. A. Barron
Yes. And so how do you go from those goals to helping people in an organization rise to their very best and ultimately serve that larger cause, but also give themselves the opportunity for more meaningful work and a more meaningful life?

Tom Kiernan
We’re working, and you know this well, inside American Rivers on a set of core values. And as you and I were talking earlier about living one’s own values and trying to be transparent about that and trying to be genuine about that. Inside an organization, if you’ve got a set of strategy, if you’ve got a set of goals that you want to achieve by 2050 or you have to achieve by 2050 or 2030 or whatever, making sure you’ve got the right culture. So, for example, that the staff can thrive. I believe strongly that we don’t want staff burning out or working too hard. People have lives, they’ve got families, they’ve got partners, they’ve got kids, they got grandparents and those things matter too, along with the really important work we’re doing.

So inside an organization, I think it’s important that we create a set of practices that enable, encourage staff to thrive. One of our other core values is lead with collaboration and trust. The most effective way, I believe, to lead is with collaboration, supporting others, partnering with others and building the organizational and interpersonal trust. So setting these values inside an organization helps staff develop and become their best selves and grow and learn and succeed both in what we’re trying to achieve, improving health of rivers. And, frankly, have them succeed in their life’s journey.

T. A. Barron
Exactly.

Tom Kiernan
So I think that’s an important part of a leader’s role, caring deeply about your team, your partners, your staff. And it’s one of the joys in my life, working with these dedicated, passionate, knowledgeable people.

T. A. Barron
Beautiful. It goes all around, doesn’t it?

[Music Plays]

T. A. Barron
In the midst of all of this, Tom, let’s take a hard look at the place we are as a species, humanity on this precious, fragile, beautiful planet that is so beleaguered and in trouble in many ways. In the midst of all of that, what wakes you up in the night with worry? What are you most concerned about and worried about for our future? Your children and grandchildren and all people and all creatures who are on this planet.

Tom Kiernan
Our lives these days feel so complex and stressful and technology driven and there’s an anxiety, there’s an anger. We have a war in Ukraine, there’s partisan battles. So there’s this context of anxiety and we’re attempting, as the planet, to step up to meeting the existential crisis of climate change. We have most of the technologies we need to address the climate crisis. Yes, we’re going to figure out some new, cool technologies, we’re going to improve battery efficiency, all that’s important. And essential.

The real challenge in addressing climate change is getting, especially in democracies throughout the globe, getting the democratic process to work. Where citizens are forcing or encouraging or requiring their governments to take action. The democratic processes have to work so that we get the policies and the funding and the practices to address the climate crisis. We can handle the technology needed on the climate crisis. It’s the social systems that are needed to make the change. That’s what worries me in our work in American Rivers and my work as a conservationist. It does come back to helping people be connected with the natural world, understanding the importance of clean drinking water so that they’re motivated to get their governments to take the right actions to deal with climate change. We’ve got to get people aware of the need to address it and motivated to take action in their countries.

T. A. Barron
And we’re all in this together. The great thing is when people realize that nature is a fundamental part of the solution to all of these problems. Helping nature thrive reduces problems like starvation and pollution and disease and all of those ailments that afflict all humans everywhere and our fellow creatures. If you can help protect nature in all the various ways we can, wherever we are, this whole planet will lift, and our planet will breathe freely, and we will all thrive.

Tom Kiernan
And enabling nature to do its thing, allowing the natural systems to work, often is the cheapest way for getting the clean water. Yes, we have technologies for cleaning water, but you know what? A wetland and a floodplain and a river are really inexpensive ways of making clean water.

T. A. Barron
Right.

Tom Kiernan
So we do need to protect and honor the natural systems, and it’s good for us to do that at an emotional level and at an economic pocketbook level as well.

T. A. Barron
Right. Now, I just asked you what worries you the most. The sister question to that, what is the greatest renewal of your hope? Where does that come from?

Tom Kiernan
I get hope from the small walks along streams and with people, with friends. Frankly, Tom, when we were out yesterday with you and your family along the little creek and talking and listening to the riffles and the water just moving, it’s like, oh, this feels right. This is good. I’m doing what I can to help. So there is hope. There is comfort, there’s motivation, I think, in people. People coming together, people working together. I also, you and I were talking yesterday, I think there’s taking moments to appreciate. Moments of gratitude kind of pulls us out again from some of our stressful, anxiety, blah, blah, blah. Pause, treasure the love of a spouse or the laugh of a little kid or treasure a little bunny hopping in your backyard or a bird singing in the springtime. It’s like, oh, that’s beautiful. That’s lovely.

T. A. Barron
The first green leaves that are out here, what my mother used to call leaf breath that are just so subtle and just starting to touch the willows and the cottonwoods and you feel spring returning. That’s a miracle.

Tom Kiernan
It’s a miracle and it matters and it helps us. It rejuvenates us. There are a lot of different people on this globe. There are different people in our country. There are people with different political views, different set of values. I believe strongly on the importance of bringing people together. Even you and I will disagree on some things, and we agree on a whole lot of things, and there’s some other people that they and I disagree on a whole lot of things. But we need to keep coming back together and listening and meeting and making common ground, even with somebody who I disagree on a bunch of stuff with them. But dang gum, let’s find places of common ground.

T. A. Barron
Right. We all depend on healthy water, healthy air, healthy food, all those things. There is common ground. But we do need more of those forces that bring people together these days more than any other time in our life.

Tom Kiernan
Yes. And an attitude of being able to listen to somebody that maybe I don’t agree on a lot, but ooo, I’m learning something. Ahh, I’m broadening my understanding and oh, you know, actually, you and I, on that issue, we do share. Yes. We both enjoy the rivers and this. And so the reason I just share all that is, and it relates to gratitude and hopefulness, that I have seen time and time again that if we separate ourselves and say, oh, this person is my adversary, or I really dislike that, or set people apart, that’s not moving things in the right direction.

T. A. Barron
No.

Tom Kiernan
Getting people together, working together to create common ground is essential for us as a society and for protecting life on Earth.

T. A. Barron
Well said. The real action is in building bridges. And there are so many elements in our world, our media, our political system, so much that are pulling people apart, and it’s not what we need. We don’t need people demonizing each other. We don’t need extremes to be widened. What we need is to talk about what everyone cares about, what affects all of our lives, and what promotes opportunities and ways to grow and live and thrive for everyone.

Tom Kiernan
Fully agree with that. To a degree, that comes back to the core value I mentioned earlier, leading with collaboration and trust. And by that I mean, we got to collaborate not just with people that we agree with 99% of the time. No, we need to collaborate with people that we disagree or they’ve got a whole different perspective.

And I often think of those images that astronauts have taken from space. When we went to the moon, when Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin were standing on the moon, what I believe hit them the hardest was, oh, look at that Earth with the blue, the living dynamism. The beauty of that planet Earth relative to the starkness, the cold, the darkness of space. Boy, there’s this planet of, one might say, love and beauty and natural world. We need to be reminded of that feeling and the preciousness of this planet Earth. It’s our only one.

T. A. Barron
Right. The sight of that gleaming blue jewel of life surrounded by all that darkness. This is ours to save and to give to the future or to destroy. We have the power either way. Which will we choose?

Tom Kiernan
So true. I’ll also mention National Parks Conservation Association that I worked with. One of the things I loved about that work, national parks are owned by all of us. And talking about that and inspiring people to say, hey, you are one of the owners of this park. And realizing this is part of your, if you will, estate, and getting people to have shared ownership of some lands and places was a lovely value as well. And it speaks to, at a large way, the globe. This is ours with all the critters, the wildlife.

T. A. Barron
That’s right. That little county park that was on the stream where you grew up in Virginia was something that a locality had put aside and wanted to protect. And heavens, this lost young kid at age seven played there and it renewed him so that here he is 40 years later, having a life dedicated to conserving rivers. Now, that’s a story that nobody could have predicted in its details, but you could certainly have predicted in the ideals behind it and all of our public lands. What an amazing gift. What a great heritage. Our wildlife refuges, our designated wilderness, our protected wild and scenic rivers, all of the public lands on every level of every government in this nation and in the world, that is a gift. That is essentially planting trees for the future. That the people who plant those trees may never live long enough to sit in the shade under those trees, but they know someday, someone will do that, and that’s enough.

Tom Kiernan
And it speaks to how much we in the conservation field do stand on the shoulders of our predecessors, Ralph Waldo Emerson, John Muir, Aldo Leopold, and so, so many others, and whoever it was that helped create that park across the street and that stream. The impact that they had on my little life, but on so many people’s lives, is extraordinary. And it does come back to the journey we each are taking on this planet. We’re here but for a relatively short period of time, and let’s do our part to try to help protect some more places, restore some more places. Can we leave this Earth a better place than when we started? I think the jury is still out on that. What are we going to do to address cleaning up more rivers, to address the climate crisis and –

T. A. Barron
Everything that we have in front of us, let’s step up and do the work.

[Music Plays]

T. A. Barron
Tom, what would you say if you could only say one thing to young people everywhere about the environment, about themselves, about the journey ahead?

Tom Kiernan
I would communicate the hopefulness of connecting with the natural world and helping to take care of it. It is joyful work. I’m not going to say it’s always joyful, but in aggregate it is hopeful. It is joyful. Care about these natural places. Lend your hand. Do your part. I’ll also say there are many different roles people can play in helping to conserve this planet. You can do it as a full-time career, as I have, and that is great, and so many people do. But you can also be a doctor, a dentist…there’s so many careers.

T. A. Barron
A teacher, a parent, chemist.

Tom Kiernan
And do your part to help protect this life on Earth. So my message to young people is a hopeful one and an encouraging one for them to connect with the natural world. It’s about going and playing in the stream across the street. It’s about going for a walk in the woods with your family, and then it builds from there. It’s short. It’s a treasured thing that we have, living on this planet. Take advantage of that by having as meaningful and healthy a life as you can.

T. A. Barron
Amen. So, Tom, now, one more question.

Tom Kiernan
Please.

T. A. Barron
What’s your next river trip?

Tom Kiernan
Oh, boy, I’ve got a couple of river trips coming up this summer. We’ll be on the Grand Canyon. It’s a classic. I will say, as folks I’m sure have read, the Colorado is a river under profound stress. We have been removing from the river a lot more water than has been coming in. Now this year we’ve got a great snowpack and that’s great. But the big picture is long-term reduction in precipitation in the Southwest.

T. A. Barron
And we’ve already had several years of drought.

Tom Kiernan
Yeah, and I mean, we are seeing the permanent aridification, the permanent drying out, of the Southwest. So I’ll be on the Grand Canyon, both enjoying this spectacular park and working with people and others to build the constituency to help protect and help get agreement among the seven states and the federal government and Mexico on how to better protect the Colorado River. So I’ll be on the Colorado.
I’ll be on the Salmon River, that’s the Middle Fork of the Salmon, later this year. Goes through the Frank Church Wilderness Area in Idaho, and it’s a wild and scenic river. So I’ll be on a number of rivers and again, that replenishes my soul. That gets me ready to get back in there the next morning and do a bunch of emails, yes, but from a space, from a place of joy and connection with the natural world.

T. A. Barron
How great. That’s a win for all of us right there. My favorite quote is a quote from Buddha. “Make of your life a light.” And Tom Kiernan, you live that way, you really do. And your light illuminates all of us. Thank you so much for being here with us today. And all of the listeners of this podcast, I urge you with great joy to check out the work of American Rivers, a terrific organization doing important work at a crucial time. Thanks again, Tom.

Tom Kiernan
Thank you very much. It’s been a joy to be with you this morning and have this journey with you, and your family, in conservation. You are generous with your time and your comments. Thank you. And I couldn’t agree more to your listeners. Go get on a river. Join American Rivers as you’re so inclined at americanrivers.org and I’ll see you on a river soon.

T. A. Barron
Great.

T. A. Barron
To everyone out there, let me just say thank you so much for joining us for Magic & Mountains. We’ll see you next week. And in the meantime, may you have magical days.

Carolyn Hunter
We hope you enjoyed this week’s episode of Magic & Mountains: The T. A. Barron Podcast. Don’t forget to subscribe, leave a five-star review, and share this podcast with your family and friends. For more information and to find all of T. A.’s books, visit tabarron.com. Have a magical week.